From Dune

Hey hey. I was wondering what your thoughts were on getting a template together for "Characters". Something with like a box on the right, that would give all their vitals, such as what book they first apppeared in and such. Then we could have a standard list of content for each character, something like:

Summary, History (divided by book), Impact Quotes, Trivia/behind the scenes.

I'll try to work on something that i can show you :) peace, --Jsblack 00:47, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

How would you like to help out at another dunewiki? http://wiki.dune2k.com It's run by possibly the biggest Dune site out there, a site which is also the official home of Emperor: Battle for Dune.

Hi Cereax, thanks for the welcome. I'll keep adding more bits and pieces over time. Hopefully more will contribute as it develops. Let me know if there's any particular articles that are a priority.

Cheers, Michael--Mcada 02:57, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Hello Cereax. Are you the administrator/moderator here? If so I was wondering if I could change the main page. It's been kind of the same forever. --Count Fenring 18:38, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Cereax, You've uploaded an image of William Hurt in Lost in Space was an image of Jurgen Prochnow in the 1984 Dune movie. Cheers, Mcada.

Oops, thanks for pointing that out. It's fixed now. Google lied to me! :-) --Careax 03:58, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Your contributions on Shopping Wikia 2 Canon vs non-canon 3 More canon vs non-canon 4 Thanks for the Welcome! 5 Stuff 6 Doon 7 Doon 8 Thanks 9 Thanks for the welcome! 10 JubalHarshaw 11 More canon vs. non-canon 12 About MoffRebus 13 Saying hello

[edit] Your contributions on Shopping Wikia

Your contributions at ShoppingWiki: have helped a lot. The Newegg.com article is likely to become an interim featured article, and the interim logo will certainly be very helpful.

However, the stream of new editors seems to have dried up, and our term as Collaboration of the Month draws to a close tonight. It would be very helpful to have an additional continuing editor, rather than do this all on my own. (I think I've done about all I can do without help.) Is there some reason you stopped editing, and anything I could do that would convince you to return? I would appreciate a reply on this page, which I will be watching with enotif, or on ShoppingWiki:User talk:Seahen. Seahen 00:08, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Canon vs non-canon

Hi Careax,

Regarding canon vs. non-canon works, Frank herbert wrote a book called "Eye" some time ago. In this book was a chapter with a host of illustrations and short snippets about the Dune universe which occur sometime between "Dune" and "Dune Messiah". I am in the process of getting my hands on this book. If I can incorporate the material from that book into this wiki, would it be considered canon or con-canon? Thanks, --Mcada 02:51, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Mcada. If Frank Herbert wrote it, then I think it's definitely canon. --Careax 03:00, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More canon vs non-canon

Hi Careax,

Thanks for that. Another question: the new books being released by BH & KJA set after Chapterhouse - canon or non-canon? I ask because they are apparently based on FH's outlines. Cheers, --Mcada 03:18, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Mcada. Personally I'd be inclined to consider them non-canon. Although they're based on Frank's notes, the actual novels weren't written by him. So it could be argued his plots and character definitions have been subtly altered by BH and KJA. That's my opinion, and I suspect the opinion of quite a few other fans (especially the hard-core ones). Now if it turns out they've left some unedited chapters in there that FH wrote, that will make it really complicated! :-)

What do you think? I just read your user page, and found the answer to this question. I agree with you on the BH and KJA novels. I think they make for a fun read, but they're definitely not of the same calibre as FH's Dune novels. --Careax 05:47, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks for the Welcome!

I was SOOO excited when I found this wiki! I'm glad I'm able to contribute to it in whatever way I can. I do have some concerns about canon/noncanon. Since all of the new novels are copyrighted by the Herbert Partners Ltd (in various incarnations) and presumably approved by the remaining Herberts, shouldn't those be considered canon? I'll be happy to go with the convention of the entire wiki, but I just wanted to address that. Thanks again!

Dolza42 03:24, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I was also wondering: I managed to get my little hands on a copy of The Dune Encyclopedia. It has a wealth of information, some of which is based directly on Frank Herbert canon material, while other parts are definitely non-canon. Can they be included here? Cheers, --Mcada 03:25, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, this is a sticky issue for sure. Personally, I think that only material written by Frank himself should be considered canon. Even if it contradicts later writing also by him.

For me, the problem with considering anything copyrighted by the Herbert Partners Ltd as canon is that it envelopes the new Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson novels. While they make for an entertaining read, and contain a great deal of continuity, they lack the depth of Frank's work and contain a variety of plot contradictions compared to his novels. You make a strong argument Dolza42. But I don't think having the tacit approval of some of the Herberts is enough.

I'm not a hardcore fan who thinks they should be totally ignored. As I say, I think they add value to the Duniverse, but in much the same way as any competant fan writing does. I think we (contributors to this wiki) have been fairly thorough and detail-oriented. But we are definitely not canon.

As for the Dune Encyclopedia, that too brings up some canon concerns, in much the same way as the B Herbert/K Anderson novels. While it contains some writing by Frank, it also contains other people's writings that aren't quite the same. But having said that, well done on getting hold of a copy Mcada! By all means add information from it into the wiki. I'd love to read it, and I'm sure others would too. :-)

So to summarize my ramblings, I think a strong line has to be drawn in the sand, marking what is canon and what is non-canon. Otherwise it all gets messy, people get confused, and the value of this wiki is compromised. I don't think it's important where the writing comes from. If it's by Frank Herbert and it's related to Dune, it's canon. So any short stories or exerpts from the Dune Encyclopedia that were written by Frank, and the relevant material from Eye. So my suggestion is this:

• Dune material written exclusively by Frank Herbert: canon.
• Dune material written by Brian Herbert/Kevin Anderson (including the sequel novels), or coming from sources that were approved by Frank Herbert or Herbert Partners Ltd (including approved games, the movies/mini-series, and the Dune Encyclopedia): non-canon, but worthy of inclusion in the wiki with a caveat label.
• Other Dune material: non-canon and not worthy of inclusion in this wiki.

But let me know what you guys think. This is an open project and your ideas and thoughts are appreciated. I hope my opinions on this topic don't put you off. I think there's some great teamwork forming here, and this wiki has the potential to be a massive resource for fans of Dune. --Careax 04:25, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Just an FYI: I've copied these conversations to the Community Portal page. I figure that's probably a more open and general place for discussing this topic. Feel free to carry on the thread there. :-) --Careax 04:25, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey Careax, I have a pdf file I would like to send you. It's a certain 'reference book' related to this wiki. Let me know if you're interested. It's a 10MB pdf file, about 700 pages long. --Michael 04:04, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi Michael. Yes, I'd be very interested in that pdf file. Thanks. Andrew (Careax 14:11, 18 January 2007 (UTC))

Hi Careax. Here's the link: TheDune.ru: The Dune Encyclopedia It's too big to e-mail. Even zipped. Cheers, Michael --Mcada 02:47, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Stuff

Hey Careax, sorry I haven't been able to put in much input. I've recently gotten married and I've been overseas. Looking forward to putting in my two cents worth again though. Let me know if there's any existing articles you'd like me to review, or if there are new articles you want me to establish. Cheers, --Mcada 01:11, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi there, and congratulations to you! Good to have you back on the wiki. I've been swamped recently too, although my time is now freeing up a little. So I'm hoping to put in more time here.

First off, we probably need a new Featured Article for the home page (I suspect Caladan is getting a bit tired of all the attention! :-) ). Second, if you could take on one or two articles in the Rewrite category that would be great. I think I've basically got the 'List of Dune terminology' rewritten, but another pair of eyes would be cool. The other three probably need more work. I think they were ripped verbatim from Wikipedia, so the context and format is wrong for this wiki.

Also, I really like what Kraytkiller7 has done with the 'Appearances' section on his or her new articles. This would be nice to add to our existing articles. But that will take time.

Other than that I guess it's just a case of chipping away at new articles and polishing the existing ones. The novel and movie pages probably need to be reviewed, but we can tag-team on those, if you like.

I'd be very interested to hear your ideas on how we should progress. It seems like now we're over the 500 article margin we're in new territory. If we could get three or four other active users contributing good quality stuff in here I think things would really start buzzing. But how we do that, I don't know.

Cheers, Careax 07:43, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi Careax,

Thanks for the well-wishes.

I'll have a look at the rewritten list and see what I can do. Meanwhile, I'll also have a look at the novel pages too, so that we can work out a plan. Kratykiller seems to have done some good work.

I've been telling my friends about the wiki. Hopefully some of them will be half-interested in contributing. We'll see!!!

Cheers, --Mcada 20:59, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Doon

I would like a more specific explanation as to why my contribution has been removed. If a parody is not in any way related to the material it spoofs than I don't know what is. Perhaps I'm missing the big picture, in that case my username is somewhat justified. I am not trying to sound petulant or control. I am not saying that your decision to remove the Doon link was unjustifed or your judgement impaired. I could not find your email address and I apologize for making my ignorant own missunderstanding public.

Hi GloriousIdoit. I think your question is reasonable, and I appreciate you discussing this issue in a rational manner, as not everyone would. I deleted the Doon article because for me it falls outside the scope of this wiki.

The Dune wiki's goal is to catalog the fictional universe created by Frank Herbert and expanded by his son and Kevin J. Anderson. We're trying to avoid the inclusion of non-canon material (that is work not written by Herbert or officially endorsed by his estate), to prevent scope creep.

While clearly the Doon novel is somewhat connected to Dune (the former being a parody of the latter), it is not set in the Dune Universe, and wasn't written by or (as far as I can tell) officially endorsed by Frank Herbert or his estate. Regards, Careax 15:11, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Doon

Hey Careax,

Good to be back. Regarding Doon, no I don't think it should be included in this wiki. Like you, I believe it isn't relevant. It's a parody, possibly a good one, but not directly related to the Duniverse.

I had a look at the vandalism you mention. It looked like a series of random characters to me. I'm not sure we can stop acts of vandalism from happening, but if we keep a close eye on recent changes, we should be able to remove them and repair the damage before too many people see it.

The scope guidelines are a great idea. That way we can make it clear what is canon and what isn't. I'm still happy to consider the BH and KJA books non-canon. For me, it's less so an issue of the books not being written by FH, it's more that they're just not very good. I find the plotlines juvenile, the character names even more so, and the tie-ins to the FH material improbable, implausible, and diminishing of the mystery of the original texts.

Apart from points regarding canon material, I think the guidelines might also need to outline language rules, especially considering that despite the rules being posted elsewhere, some contributors still don't seem to follow them. Am I being too much of a stickler?

Let me know if you'd like more input.

Cheers,

--Mcada 06:59, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks

Thanks much for the contributor star! I'm glad to be here and glad to help. I'll continue to improve the organization and content of the Dune Wiki to the best of my ability. JubalHarshaw 16:15, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks for the welcome!

Hi. I came here after seeing a link posted by Edric over on Arrakeen. I was checking out a few entries on favorite topics and noticed the Norma Cenva "inventor of space-folding" attribution and decided to sign up. (She's a pet peeve of mine in general but...never mind! ;)

I read the canon vs. non-canon discussion above. I agree with your basic position (only things written by FH are canon, everything else is fanfic) but think there are some interesting ideas in fanfic that might be worthy of inclusion as long as they are appropriately sourced and marked as such. (Clam-powered ornithopters? No thank you!)

I haven't looked around enough yet to know if you have the Citation.php footnotes installed, but notes are a good way of handling this. Another idea would be to create two small inline images, one for "authorized fanfic" (the BH & KJA novels) and "non-authorized fanfic" (anything else) and insert these at the beginning of any paragraph or section containing such material.

Just some ideas!

Oh, by the way, I'm using Safari (2.0.3) to access the site and none of the Javascript buttons about the edit window seem to work. :(

-SandChigger 21:58, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] JubalHarshaw

Hey Careax,

I vote to make JubalHarshaw an Admin for this wiki. His contributions are excellent an he's been prolific in wikifying everything.

Let me know what you think.

Cheers --Mcada 01:51, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

That's eerie! I was just thinking about that yesterday, and was going to ask what you thought. I agree with you, I think he'd make a great admin. Did you want to ask him if he'd like to? Or shall I? Cheers, Careax 04:01, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Great minds think alike! I'd love to ask him :-) --Mcada 06:16, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you both for your kind words and for considering me for admin. I gladly accept! I'm glad to be here and helping out any which way, and I will continue to improve and expand this Wiki, in the same manner as you've come to expect from me. If there's anything I can do, please let me know. JubalHarshaw 12:37, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More canon vs. non-canon

User Note: I've copied the conversation below to the community portal discussion page, so it can be better followed and commented on there.

While I am pretty sure what I am going to say will fall on deaf ears, or maybe even get ignored, I must speak my peace.

I find the whole canon vs. non-canon discussion ridiculous, especially with the reasons given.

I am the first to admit that the other novels written by B. Herbert and Anderson are not "as good" as the original novels, then again, all of the six originals novels weren't "great" in my opinion. To me, GEoD was a painful book to read and finish, where it did not match the quality of the previous 3 books. I also found Chapterhouse to be a difficult read. (And I have read other Herbert novels which I found very disappointing)

But I find contradictions in the reasonings not to include the Herbert/Anderson novels as canon. Especially given the following statements:

Yeah, this is a sticky issue for sure. Personally, I think that only material written by Frank himself should be considered canon. Even if it contradicts later writing also by him.

For me, the problem with considering anything copyrighted by the Herbert Partners Ltd as canon is that it envelopes the new Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson novels. While they make for an entertaining read, and contain a great deal of continuity, they lack the depth of Frank's work and contain a variety of plot contradictions compared to his novels. You make a strong argument Dolza42. But I don't think having the tacit approval of some of the Herberts is enough.

On one hand, you decry the inconsistencies from Herbert/Anderson, yet admit in the same breath that Herbert contradicted himself. If the sole basis is on contradictions, then eliminating the Herbert/Anderson novels on the basis of contradictions is insufficient.

Furthermore, if not having the approval of Herbert is enough, then what will satisfy the Dune fans? Would it take Herbert rising from the grave and speaking in a booming voice that he agrees with the tenor and tone of what Herbert/Anderson have done?

The fact is, Frank and Brian has conversations that we will never be privy to. Fathers and sons often have conversations that no one else is aware of. Just because we read the books does not give us true insight into the intentions of the man.

I will not for a moment say that Brian is nearly as good of a writer as his father. But on the same token, Brian had access to information that none of us will ever know. And given that Frank and Brian did work on projects together prior to Frank's death, the continual bashing of Brian (And Anderson) is silly, juvenile and immature, and the relegation of his continuation of his fathers work is an insult to the legacy of his father.

As fans, we are owed nothing. I bet if Frank had written Dune 7, people would still have found something to complain about. The fact of the matter is, a lot is assumed with these issues, without the benefit of clear cut reasoning, only subjective opinions, and contradictions in opposition to contradictions.

Therefore, without the benefiting of a living Frank Herbert, who are any of us to say what he would or would not have done with the Dune universe.

Rebel02

Hey Rebel02,

You make some very good arguments, to be sure. However, the works of BH and KJA will continue to be considered non-canon in this wiki, if only for the sake of purity. You are right in that BH&KJA have access to material that te rest of us do not, and that they have used much this material to flesh out their stories. However, we here at the Dune Wiki are essentially purists at heart, and wish to keep the universe created by FH fairly contained.

Some points to actually consider however:

• You quote Dune Wiki founder and admin Careax as saying that FH contradicted himself. He actually did not. Careax's point was that had FH contradicted himself, the work would still be considered canon.

Having said that, we are still more than happy to continue to develop the BH&KJA content here.

Thanks for your input and interest. Please feel free to continue to contribute to this wiki. If anyone wishes to continue to discuss canon vs. non-canon, please be our guest. Cheers, --Mcada 03:25, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] About MoffRebus

Hello, Careax,

You don't know me, have been a little time since I make part of this Wiki, I'm known as Lisan Al-Gaib.

Well, I'm here to talk to you about the user called MoffRebus. I think he shouldn't be permitted to edit any article related to the originals. He told me didn't even read Frank Herbert's DUNE yet. That made me out of my mind. How could someone come here and start writing articles about DUNE without even read the originals. I don't like to play Judas here, but here is a wiki who everybody can read, and a guy like MoffRebus writing on it wouldn't be cool. The great problem is that he already had written many articles here....

Thanks for your attention, Lisan Al-Gaib 19:38, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Hey I saw this :)

Don't worry, I will read the originals soon. MoffRebus 12:18, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Saying hello

Hi Careax I like this site.. yet so far the community is a bit quiet eh? but that is cool Even though we only know from what we read in FH&BH&KJA's novels.. it is cool to have the site to help reference and or help understand our duniverse... I hope that while it is an open site.. I will like it here.. and that our sense of humor.. is well just is...Namaste 22:59, 17 December 2008 (UTC)Murbella MCNamaste